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humidity control
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=1621		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  sfbrown [ Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:39 am ]
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I read the thread regarding controlling shop humidity with a salt. It has possibilities but I also see the drawbacks. What I am looking for is the ability to regulate both humidity(primarily) and temperature (secondarily) in a small enclosure roughly 4'w x 2'd x 7'h. This enclosure would be for my wood stash.

What have you folks done that I might be able to duplicate on a small scale? Is it economically feasible? I have seen Tim Mcknight's "locker" and I guess that what I am looking for is a small version of this.

Thanks in advance for the input, Steve Brown
Author:  EricKeller [ Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:35 pm ]
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I was thinking of using the light bulb in a box approach. I guess it drops the humidity lower than what you want in a workspace, but at least the wood stays at a fairly constant RH. I should think this approach through, doesn't have my professional endorsement.
Author:  Darin Spayd [ Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:12 am ]
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Steve, I seem to recall someone asking this on the MIMF forum and one response was a continuously lit 40w bulb for a closet such as yours. I'd get a hygrometer, then monitor empty for awhile to check consistancy.
Author:  Paul Schulte [ Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:02 am ]
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I think a book could be written on this subject. A lot depends on where you live. In the northeast where I am I go from humidify to de-humidfy, air condition with the seasons. I didn't try for the "closet style" humidity control but decided to do my whole shop.
      Relative humidiity and temperature are closely related. No matter how you do it there needs to be an automated control mechanism that keeps the humidity within your desired levels or else you will be babysitting the system every time there is a big swing in temp or humidity levels.
      For your situation I think a very small de-humidifier with a humidity control is your best bet.
Author:  sfbrown [ Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:23 am ]
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[QUOTE=Paul Schulte] I think a book could be written on this subject. A lot depends on where you live. In the northeast where I am I go from humidify to de-humidfy, air condition with the seasons. I didn't try for the "closet style" humidity control but decided to do my whole shop.
      Relative humidiity and temperature are closely related. No matter how you do it there needs to be an automated control mechanism that keeps the humidity within your desired levels or else you will be babysitting the system every time there is a big swing in temp or humidity levels.
      For your situation I think a very small de-humidifier with a humidity control is your best bet. [/QUOTE]

I think you nailed it! Well... maybe glued it. Nails don't look good on a guitar. I'm in the same boat. Too dry in the winter, too humid in the summer. My probelm is finding the right kind of controls. I know they exist for large humidors but they assume that since you buy $5 (and up) cigars, you want to spend a small fortune on humidity control. Well, I guess I'll keep working on it. Maybe I'll talk to an HVAC guy (or gal).

I do like the idea of the light bulb as a heat source. Maybe I can used that with a thermostat AND one of those chemical solutions discussed elsewhere and then an adjustable de-humidifier in the summer? Now its sounding complicated but if I must, I must.

Thanks for the suggestions, Steve Brown
Author:  EricKeller [ Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:09 am ]
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I used to do HVAC field service engineering on F-16's, does that count?

Unfortunately, it doesn't exactly translate. For one thing, that system must cost a good portion of a million dollars, and that doesn't count the afterburning jet engine required to drive it

Author:  Paul Schulte [ Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:19 am ]
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Lights could work well if you are willing to play around with how many watts you would need. Did a quick search for a humidistat that has a relay output that you could wire to the lights to turn them on and off according to the relative humidity. Here's the link: http://www.buenisima.com/humidity/. I am sure there are many more. I know quite a bit about environmental controls so if you need any help in wiring them up let me know.
Author:  sfbrown [ Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Paul Schulte] Lights could work well if you are willing to play around with how many watts you would need. Did a quick search for a humidistat that has a relay output that you could wire to the lights to turn them on and off according to the relative humidity. Here's the link: http://www.buenisima.com/humidity/. I am sure there are many more. I know quite a bit about environmental controls so if you need any help in wiring them up let me know.[/QUOTE]

Eric, your offer is tempting but my wife doesn't like the sounds of F-16's starting up in the morning and the exhaust spoils the taste of her coffee.

Paul, I can wire a light for temperature comtrol but I think I will need some form of humidifier such as Tim M has. I'm going to check the big box stores and see if there is something available via the easy route.

Thanks all, Steve
Author:  Monty Cadenhead [ Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:16 pm ]
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I've been using a light bulb drying box for about 3 years, for wood and a young guitar that's still susceptible to high humidity. It works OK, with the caveat that I haven't actually USED any of the wood. The guitar dries out when I put it in the box.

I live in Key West, Florida, where the daytime temperature ranges from 90F to 65F, usually around 80-85F. Nights are less 10F, more or less. RH is from around 85% in summer and 55% in winter, with 70-75% being the norm.

The box is an old particle board armoire, about 5ft X 3ft X 2ft, and is in no sense sealed. Info on the MIMF suggested leaving a lot of ventilation, and I'd guess there's about 10-15 square inches of cracks around the doors and the back. I just kept sealing the cracks until the RH got to where I wanted it. The bulb is a 60 watt in a clip on fixture.

It drops the RH about 15%-20% from ambient, more or less all the time. In summer, I run an conditioner in the room, which drops the ambient RH by about 15%, so when the outside RH is 80%, the AC drops it to 65% and the RH in the cabinet is 45%-50%.

There's a bit of thermal inertia inside the cabinet, in that wide swings in ambient RH (which last only a few days here) are much less inside the cabinet.

I measure the RH with these:
http://www.weatherconnection.com/mfgproduct.asp?mfgname=Oreg on+Scientific&itmky=636&mfgno=1

I have 3 sensors, and they read within 2% of one another from 15% to 98%. The Oregon Scientific stuff is great, BTW. I've had one remote temperature sensor outside for about 7 years with nary a whimper.

As I said, I'm not actually building anything yet, and I'm not trying to control RH to a couple of percent with braced up tops inside the box. If I were, I think I could do it just by keeping an eye on the RH in the box, and adjusting it by controlling either the ventilation or the bulb wattage. Maybe not though, and I'll have to use a humidistat.

Monty
Author:  sfbrown [ Sat Apr 09, 2005 11:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks for the info, it looks like a good start and will handle things in the summer. I will still have to humidify things in winter.


BTW, you live in my favorite city on earth. My wife and I have actually talked about buying property a little north on Isla Morada. We go down there almost every year and my daughter has a "90 miles to Cuba" front liscense plate on her car! Now, I'm jealous

Thanks, Steve
Author:  Paul Schulte [ Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:14 am ]
Post subject: 
Steve you may be surprised how just a shallow pan of water in your closet can raise humidity. May be kind of simplistic but for the size of your closet I bet it would work.
Author:  Monty Cadenhead [ Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:15 am ]
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[QUOTE=sfbrown] Now, I'm jealous [/QUOTE]

Come on down around Labor Day, and we'll watch the hurricanes migrate up from the Caribbean to the mainland. Lotsa fun!!

MontyMonty Cadenhead38452.8443055556
Author:  sfbrown [ Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:32 am ]
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[QUOTE=Monty Cadenhead] [QUOTE=sfbrown] Now, I'm jealous [/QUOTE]

Come on down around Labor Day, and we'll watch the hurricanes migrate up from the Caribbean to the mainland. Lotsa fun!!

Monty[/QUOTE]

You may regret the offer. I may take you up on it! I'm assuming of course that you don't live in one of the "houseboats".   

Regards, Steve
Author:  Monty Cadenhead [ Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:50 am ]
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I did live anchored out for 8 years.

Don't ask me if I wish I still did.

Monty
Author:  sfbrown [ Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Monty Cadenhead]
I did live anchored out for 8 years.

Don't ask me if I wish I still did.

Monty[/QUOTE]

I had a talk with my 18 year old daughter last night. She fell in love with marine biology when we did some snorkeling down there a few years ago (on the Stars and Stripes, btw). She wants to attend Key West Community College now in their MB program. I told her she had to get some decent grades at a local school and I would do what I could. Fortunately, most (actually all) of my family lives in the Venice area so residency isn't a problem. And hey, if I have to move down there to keep tabs on her... well, it's a tough job but someboy's gotta do it!

I hear they're trying to get rid of the houseboats. Is this true?

Regards, Steve Brown
Author:  EricKeller [ Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:07 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=sfbrown]   Fortunately, most (actually all) of my family lives in the Venice area so residency isn't a problem.
Regards, Steve Brown[/QUOTE]

I have a friend that went to UFla and even though he was living with his Grandmother they gave him a load of trouble about residency. When I got out of the Air Force and enrolled in Penn State, they gave me a load of trouble about residency. The Soldiers and Sailors act of 1946 says you can pick your residency when you seperate, but that doesn't stop the school from trying to seperate an additional 3000 per semester from your bank account. I'm sensing a pattern here. Like you said, you may have to move there.
Author:  Monty Cadenhead [ Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=sfbrown]
She wants to attend Key West Community College now in their MB program.[/QUOTE]

I don't know if this is good news or bad news, but they don't actually have a marine biology program.

MARINE ENVIRONMENTAL TECHNOLOGY

There's lots of diving, no serious mathmatics or chemistry.

[QUOTE=sfbrown]I hear they're trying to get rid of the houseboats. Is this true?[/QUOTE]

Houseboat Row, at the east end of the island has been gone 3 years. The anchored liveaboard boats around the island are still there, but have have been under pressure since before I moved out there in 1989.

I wouldn't worry too much about the kid's grades, Steve. She sounds pretty smart to me.

Monty
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